Three Types of Rest for Managing Stress with Gary Ware [Re-release]

We often think rest is something we earn after we've worked hard enough. We push through exhaustion, tell ourselves we'll slow down later, and believe that getting more done is the key to feeling better. But what if we've been thinking about rest all wrong?

This week, in episode 323 of the Positively LivingⓇ Podcast, we're revisiting one of our most impactful conversations with Gary Ware, founder of Breakthrough Play, keynote speaker, certified coach, and bestselling author of Playful Rebellion. As part of our summer series on energy, stress, and nervous system regulation, this timely re-release explores why rest is essential—not as a reward for productivity, but as the foundation that makes sustainable productivity possible.

Gary Ware is the founder of Breakthrough Play, a keynote speaker, certified coach, and the bestselling author of Playful Rebellion. Through applied improvisation, positive psychology, and the science of play, Gary helps individuals and organizations reduce stress, strengthen communication, spark creativity, and build more sustainable ways of working. His mission is to help people challenge the belief that productivity requires constant hustle and instead embrace play and rest as powerful tools for greater impact, innovation, and well-being.

In this conversation, Gary introduces three distinct types of rest—macro, micro, and meso—and explains how each one helps reduce stress, restore creativity, and support your energy in different ways. He also shares why play isn't childish, why entrepreneurs often resist rest the most, and how small shifts can dramatically improve your focus, well-being, and impact.

Key Takeaways:

• Rest isn't something you earn. It's something that allows you to do your best work.
• Chronic stress keeps your brain in fight, flight, or freeze mode, reducing creativity, empathy, and clear thinking.
• Better sleep isn't always about getting more hours. Improving the quality of your sleep can make a significant difference.
• A consistent wind-down routine helps your body transition into restorative sleep.
• Macro rest focuses on deep restoration through quality sleep and recovery.
• Micro rest consists of short five-minute breaks throughout the day that help reset your brain and restore energy between tasks.
• Scrolling social media or checking email isn't true rest. Choose activities that genuinely recharge you instead.
• Meso rest means intentionally stepping away from work for several hours, a day, or longer to pursue hobbies, family time, or activities that bring joy.
• Hobbies aren't a luxury—they help your brain make creative connections and improve problem-solving.
• Play looks different for everyone. The goal isn't to do what others find fun, but to discover what genuinely restores and energizes you.
• Sustainable productivity begins with honoring your energy, not constantly pushing through exhaustion.

Rest isn't the opposite of productivity—it's what makes productivity sustainable. When you give yourself permission to rest before you're completely depleted, you create space for greater creativity, better decisions, stronger relationships, and more meaningful work. What would change if you stopped trying to earn your rest and started treating it as one of your greatest strengths?

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Learn more about Positively LivingⓇ and Lisa at https://positivelyproductive.com/podcast/

Stop trying to fit into someone else’s productivity rules! Grab my free Productivity Toolkit, a collection of workbooks designed to help you explore how you work, uncover what truly matters to you, and create your very own energy-friendly systems. Get it here: www.positivelyproductive.com/plpkit

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LINKS MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

Playful Rebellion: Maximize Workplace Success Through the Power of Play

Episode 321: Why Fun and Play Belong in a Productive Life

Episode 249: Five Energizing Habits to Make You More Productive

Episode 172: Why the Simple Act of Pausing Will Make You More Productive

Play: How It Shapes the Brain, Opens the Imagination, and Invigorates the Soul by Dr. Stuart Brown

Primed to Perform by Neel Doshi & Lindsay McGregor

(Find links to books/gear on the Positively Productive Resources Page.)

Book a Clarity Call

Dance Song Playlist V1, V2, V3

Music by Ian and Jeff Zawrotny

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I'm part of a free virtual event called Burn Beautiful, alongside over 25 experts in burnout, well-being, and leadership. My session is all about the minimum effective day, practical tools to make your days more sustainable. It's available through July 7th, is free, and you can listen on your own schedule. Go to positivelyproductive.com/beautiful26 to register. 

Transcript

Gary Ware: 0:23

The story that we're telling ourselves is that we need to deserve rest. No, we need to come from a place of rest. We don't work to rest, we rest so that we can do the best possible work. So, if you are that overachiever, this should be a no-brainer for you. If you want to make an impact, if you want to be able to put in the work, rest is key.

Lisa Zawrotny: 0:48

You're listening to the Positively Living Podcast. I'm your host, Lisa Zarotni, founder of Positively Productive Systems, and a productivity coach certified in positive psychology and stress management. Join me as we explore ways to live a more proactive, positive life with episodes on productivity, self-awareness, mindset, entrepreneur life, habits and systems, simplicity, fun, and more. I understand overwhelm personally as a multi-passionate entrepreneur, wife and mom to kids and cats, and as a caregiver. I'm here to help you choose what's right for you, so you can do less, live more, and breathe easier. Sound good. Let's get to it. Welcome to the Positively Living Podcast. I'm your host, Lisa, and today I'm revisiting a conversation that has only gotten more relevant since it first aired. My guest, Gary Ware, founder of Breakthrough Play, is a keynote speaker, certified coach, and author of Playful Rebellion. Gary uses applied improvisation and other playful methods to help people unlock creativity, confidence, and better communication, and his perspective on rest and play is one I know you will love. We've been spending the last several weeks looking at energy, what drains it, how to manage it, and how to calm your nervous system when it gets overwhelmed, and most recently, why fun and play belong in a productive life. That was episode 321 Gary's conversation connects beautifully to these. He explains what's actually happening in your body when rest is missing, and introduces three distinct types of rest that go well beyond the usual just get more sleep advice. You'll appreciate those options. Here's what I find so compelling about this topic: rest and play aren't new ideas. We knew how to do these when we were kids instinctively, but somewhere along the way we got the message that those things were for other seasons of life. Garry makes the case that we were right the first time. I love that. I've explored related pieces of this in episode 172 why the simple act of pausing will make you more productive, and episode 249 five energizing habits to make you more productive. If you like this conversation, you'll want to check those out too. Now, let's revisit this timely conversation with Gary. Welcome, Gary Ware to the Positively Living Podcast. I am really excited about our conversation today.

Gary Ware: 3:21

Me as well. Oh my gosh, let's just dive in.

Lisa Zawrotny: 3:25

Yes. Well, before we get into the topic of the day, I would love it if you'd share a bit about who you are and who you help and what makes you light up.

Gary Ware: 3:35

All right, yes. So, my name is Gary Ware, pronounce he/him. I run a company called Breakthrough Play, where it's my mission to help individuals use the power of play and other playful methods to help them be more confident, better communicators, more creative, and at the end of the day, just really enjoy their life.

Lisa Zawrotny: 3:54

That does sound so good, doesn't it? I mean, right? Like, easier said

Gary Ware: 3:57

than done. Let's just be honest.

Lisa Zawrotny: 3:59

Yeah, 100% But just that idea, you're like, yes, I want to go to there. That sounds really, really good. Let's do this.

Gary Ware: 4:06

Yes,

Lisa Zawrotny: 4:07

and I know that engaging in play, right, and helping people find that play, and just having that fun, even every single conversation we've had, right? I know that that's what lights you up.

Gary Ware: 4:19

Yes,

Lisa Zawrotny: 4:21

and that is definitely what lights me up as well, and as you know, we've had a lot of the greats who love to talk about play, Jeff Harry and Mike Montague, and oh my goodness, Lauren Yee, so many people who are about this, and I love the perspective that you're coming from. I love that you have a book out, you know, that's that's talking about one of the details that we're talking about today, that we're gonna like dig into a bit more, that's in the book, and I'm like, thank you for bringing this up. So, let's start, of course, with the concept of play and your background on it, and what it really means, and what we think it means. Maybe it doesn't.

Gary Ware: 5:03

Yes,

Lisa Zawrotny: 5:03

right,

Gary Ware: 5:04

yeah. Again, you've had all these amazing people talk about play, and if you're listening and you haven't listened to that episode, go, go find it, go listen to it. So much wisdom there. As an improviser, I like to build upon in an add to work that's already done, so you know play is something that is. Done, you're non-coerced. It's something that you would, you know, do regardless of the outcome as being in that space. And at the end of the day, it brings you pleasure. When we are in this play-like state, it is a very vulnerable state to be in, because we're so present. Animals play, believe it or not. Animals in the wild play, even though by them playing, they could be attacked at any moment. They see the benefits of doing that. Us, as adults, I think, because when we play, and we know, like, how vulnerable it can be. A mentor mindset play brings out someone's unbounded true nature, and if someone were to unpack that, and why they, you know, don't play, you know, maybe it has to go back when they were a kid, and they were like truly and freely playing, and maybe they got teased or something like that, but as adults we tend to set that aside. It's not a priority, and as a result, we suffer. We have prolonged stress, and we have all these things, but here's the thing: we can't play in a stress state, even though play relieves stress, is this sort of like double edged sword, as you mentioned. Yes, in my book, you know, I talk about play and playfulness, and how, because of our conditioning, we need to rebel, and that's why it's called the playful rebellion. We need to rebel against that conditioning, rebel against the status quo, rebel against what we thought we knew to be true as adults, so that we can again get back, get back to neutral.

Lisa Zawrotny: 6:48

I know how much fun play is, but also effective it is. I know how effective play is, and I know you know it, because you know you're out there to quote Jeff Harry,"Preach right? You are like you're preaching this, but what is it? What is it? is it that we are hiding from? What is it that we're telling ourselves, the stories that we're telling ourselves that are keeping us from play? I mean, I'm thinking about things like, well, then that's an indicator that you're goofing off, right, or that you're not getting your work done, or that you're not taking the things you're supposed to take seriously. Well, what else have you heard? What's our issue

Gary Ware: 7:29

that is just for kids? Grow up, be an adult, and part of being an adult means you need to be super serious.

Lisa Zawrotny: 7:38

Sorry, I'm laughing at that, but yeah, when you say it out loud like that, you're like, really, really, come on, yeah.

Gary Ware: 7:44

I agree. Let's take the work serious, and I like to use this example, you know. Say you need to get surgery, and you have a surgeon, and of course you want that surgeon to do a great job and take his job seriously, because again, your life is in his hands. However, do you want him to be ultra stress and ultra tense, where there's a chance he's going to like sort of like cut the wrong artery or something like that, or do you want him loosey goosey, where he's focused and relaxed, where he can get in and get into a state of flow, like which one do you want. Matter of fact, people in operating rooms, what they do before they go into surgery, they actually have a very sort of playful ritual that they do, they go through, and then they sort of introduce themselves, and you know, they talk about their day, and you think, like, come on, get down to business, y'all, but what they're doing is they're creating psychological safety, they're creating this equal playing field, and by doing that, mistakes during surgery and things like that has dropped tremendously, because it makes everything neutral. Everyone has this level of psychological safety where they feel like they can speak up. Therefore, people that are nurses or whatever, that may not have the status of, like, the surgeon or the doctor, if they see something, they feel more inclined to say something. So, there has to be this harmony, but we interpreted this situation, and it got very extreme, and then now, because we went to the opposite extreme, we're not playing at all, and we are like suffering as a result of this.

Lisa Zawrotny: 9:18

Yeah, and I think as a result of the sort of habit, if you will, of the pendulum swinging and us getting used to that not being acceptable, it creates even more hesitancy, which is why I love talking about it. The way that I describe the situation to people, in terms of what I do, is I take what I do very seriously, but I do not take myself seriously, and I think that respects what I'm doing, but also allows me to be so incredibly imperfect, and when you do that, you release so much of the pressure, and I think that that build of pressure is what we're dealing with constantly in our work and in our home lives, and wanting to be the best parents and the best people, and then the best of the best. Yes, strive for the best, but allow yourself to be human.

Gary Ware: 10:07

Agreed, because when you put that pressure in yourself, what you're doing is you're activating the sympathetic nervous system in the brain. The sympathetic nervous system is the fight, flight, or freeze, which now we're producing cortisol, now we're producing adrenaline, and its original design, what. Is to get you out of an immediate danger that is happening right now, so that once the stressor is done, boom, you can release that parasympathetic nervous system kicks in, that's rest and digest, the harmony comes back in. However, those stressors are not physical, they're not immediate, they stay there, it's prolonged, and then as a result, what's happening in your brain is you're losing access to the prefrontal cortex, the part of the brain that is all about the creativity, that's all about being empathetic and things like that, and that's what we need, especially entrepreneurs, you know, that are trying to be impactful, and and they have this amazing idea, and you know, maybe you're being scrapping and you're by yourself, that extra stress that you're putting on yourself is not allowing you the ability to think on your feet, to be creative,

Lisa Zawrotny: 11:43

right? You're missing all the goodness that can come from that creativity of troubleshooting, innovating, coming at something from a different direction. When you feel stuck, it's that fluidity that allows the flexibility and the innovation that we need to make huge strides.

Gary Ware: 12:01

Yeah, and if I can add one thing, I know this is going to happen. This is the devil's advocate, where someone says, "But you don't get it, Gary, I've gotten this far, I've gotten this far, and now we are essentially sort of hijacking ourselves, and we're, we have this story that we're telling ourselves that we deem to be true, and you're right by having that voice in the back of your head that's like, you need to be serious, and, and whatnot. Yeah, yeah, maybe it's gotten you this far, but is it what you need to get you to the next level? And on top of that, do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?

Lisa Zawrotny: 12:34

Oh my god, there's so much goodness in what you just said. First of all, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy? That reminds me of someone, oh my goodness, Stuart. He facilitated some caregiver groups that I was part of, and it was one of those.. you realize that you're just, you're used to thinking and acting a certain way, and you know what your reality is, and you're certain of it, and so you're moving along with it. And as caregivers, we do that, especially when we're dealing - in my case, it was with caring for my mom with Alzheimer's. And he said, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be, you know, content and low stress and sane? Basically, is what he was saying, you know. And when he said that, I was like, it changed my entire perspective. Also, what you're describing is it reminds me, actually, I'm thinking of one client in particular who said, 'Listen, I've powered through for years and years, and I've been very successful, but at what cost? You know, at the cost of my family, at the cost of my contentedness, at the cost of, like, what is it that I really want to be doing, and am I maximizing my strengths? And I'm like, I'm so excited to work with you. This is awesome. I just, I respect that question so much, because yes, you can use a hammer for, you know, for a lot of jobs, but eventually it's not going to work. You can power through, but at what cost? And it reminds me of the book, what got you here won't get you there, that's what you're saying, right? Yeah, I love that. Okay, so shifting from here, that's a really great, like, baseline for us in terms of how this connects to our stress and our creativity. The other thing that you bring up in your book, which I love, it's one of my favorite topics, and it shifts right into sort of the topic of the day is energy management.

Gary Ware: 14:18

Yes, because we all know energy is everything, everything is energy, so we need to manage that.

Lisa Zawrotny: 14:23

So, with energy management, and you know, a little spoiler alert, I'm going to bring this up. Okay. Rest, rest was the thing that you brought up. Like, I love that we talk about play. I know how important it is. You have just laid out why, but rest, yeah, that's so important that that gets in there, because we talk about rest and play, and I want to talk about, you know, what they are, essentially. We've talked about play now, but the rest part of it, where they overlap, and how this fits into energy management.

Gary Ware: 14:51

So, the first thing is just like what you said, we look at rest as in, oh, sleep, or whatever the case may be, and yes, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, but when it comes to energy management, it's more than that, like we need to broaden our horizon, and when I learned that, it just, just blew things open for me, and I was like, oh my gosh, I could see where I was like, sort of missing the mark, where I would like.. oh, wow, I got eight hours of sleep, and so it's interesting, because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. So I was that guy that was like, I'll rest when I'm dead, and hustle and grind, and I sound like a gorilla. But anywho, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy, because what, like, I will get that eight hours of sleep, or at least try to, and then I wake up and let.. I'm not even rested. See, it doesn't even work for someone like me. Might as well just sleep for four hours and more work, and anyway. And I realized that, like, well, you know what, I'm doing it all wrong. I've got really, like, really honoring that. And once I started to realize, like, what's really happening, like, let's lift the hood and what's really happening, and realize that. Sleep is just one part of the equation. There's other forms of rest that you need to take into consideration, and you need to think about what your outcome is. And then now you can look at, oh, this is the type of rest that I need for this situation. So that was a big aha for me. And then you know, if we had the sound of the angels, like, oh, but here's the thing, my mentor always said the truth will set you free, but it may piss you off at first. That was the thing that, like, got me really mad, where, like, I didn't want to believe, I didn't like, I again, I wanted to hold on to that story that I didn't need sleep, I didn't, I didn't need rest, you know what, you don't get it, I have to work, I have to support my family and all these other things, but then just like what you said, at what cost, you know? Am I really present? Yes, Gary, you said there are different types of rest. The one that everyone knows, and there's three, you know, it's macro, micro, and meso. Macro is the big picture. This is like sleep, and what that is, is you know, making sure that you're getting sleep now. The thing that I tell entrepreneurs, and those, those people that are like, go, go, go, that don't, you know, think that they need sleep. I like to meet them where they are and say, all right, you know what, I know everyone's saying you need to get eight hours of sleep, and whatever the case might be. How about you just get better sleep, better quality sleep? If you think that you need to run on four hours, how about it be the most luxurious four hours of sleep you've had? Because I'm not a Betty man, but I like to believe that those overly ambitious types of people are like my five year old son and run red line until they're completely drained and then just pass out, and what that essentially means is like, before you close your eyes, what are you doing? Are you on devices? Are you doing things that are like not allowing you to get into REM sleep, and so that brings me like to the question of do you have a power down ritual?

Lisa Zawrotny: 17:51

Yeah, that's such a great question, that's so incredibly important, because we're coming at something with an incredible amount of energy. Let's listen. Stress, it's a given, right? It's there, and of course, sometimes stress can benefit us, and other times it can break us down, and we have to know that distinction. But when that all happens, case in point, before we started recording, I was chatting with my hubby real quick, and he was struggling with some folks at work who were making demands of him and breaking his flow, and it was just really, really challenging. That's what we're going to have to deal with, but it was great that he had a chance to just quickly, like, say, "Hey, I need to rant, and I'm like, 'Yo, here, go for it. Tell me what's up. That's crazy, you know? Like, just rant, and then goes, 'All right, I'm gonna go take a lunch break now and take an early lunch, and we're just.. and I'm like, 'Great. So it was a transition. Now, if he had just been like all fired up and frustrated, and then gone in to eat food, that's gonna make lunch horrible for him, that's not going to be a true break, right?

Gary Ware: 18:59

Oh, so true. And he is not in the parasympathetic nervous system at that point, he's in the sympathetic nervous system, and in order to really get that nourishment for the food, you need to get into the rest and digest, which means that you have to sort of throttle down so that your body can receive the nourishment that you are putting into your body,

Lisa Zawrotny: 19:20

you know. What I'm loving that you are bringing this up, because we have discussed this on the show. So, for sleep, Molly McLaughlin and Tanessa Shears both talked about sleep, they talked about these rituals, and then the distinction that we're making here in terms of the stress response, the sympathetic versus parasympathetic. Wendy Hill is talking about that in the episode about our productivity and nutrition and the connection to those two things. It's all connected, right? It's all connected. Okay, so I am loving this idea of the where do you first start if you want from the macro standpoint of sleep, and you're like, listen, I got six hours to work with Gary, I don't know what else to tell you. Your response will then make it the best possible six hours, so whatever you can do to make it the best six hours possible.

Gary Ware: 20:09

Yeah, what are the things that you could do? And again, start where you are, maybe it's you count backwards and say, hey, no devices, at least an hour or so before bedtime, you know? Instead of being on my phone, I'm gonna read a book or do nothing,

Lisa Zawrotny: 20:26

that's crazy. What are you talking about,

Gary Ware: 20:28

right? And then have a wind down routine, and it's interesting, because with my, my five year old, we have that, like, I can't just say, all right, bedtime, he will combust. We have to be like, hey, Garrett, gonna be bedtime, you have 10 minutes, enjoy this. And then, and then from there, he knows. All right, cool. After that, we need to pick up our toys. Then we go to the bathroom, then we brush our teeth, and we wash our face, and we do our nighttime medicine. Then we read a book, and then he's like, I. And then he just like falls asleep,

Lisa Zawrotny: 20:56

and you are cueing him all along the way,

and here's the news flash: 20:59

my teen and my tween both need this, so that should tell everyone something really important, which is we all need that.

Gary Ware: 21:08

It doesn't go away just because you're an adult. Transitions are essential,

Lisa Zawrotny: 21:13

they truly are. I love that. Okay, so better sleep transitions, the rituals you're talking about, habit building, all of that good stuff in there.

Gary Ware: 21:21

Start small, so that is that part. Because, again, this is the other thing, the story that we're telling ourselves is that we need to deserve rest. No, we need to come from a place of rest. We don't work to rest, we rest so that we can do the best possible work. So, if you are that overachiever, this should be a no-brainer for you. If you want to make an impact, if you want to be able to put in the work, rest is key. So, nonetheless, work with what you have, start small, develop some habits and rituals, and then boom, now we got the macro. The next rest is the micro. This is where most entrepreneurs, especially if you're running your own business, have a challenge with it. And the interesting thing is, I bet you, when you first got into your work, it felt like play again. It's something that you probably can do for hours and hours and hours. You were thinking about the sort of, like, the impact. There's.. we'll have to come back another time to talk about intrinsic motivation, because there's an amazing book called Prime to Perform, and it talks about play, purpose, and potential as an intrinsic motivator to give you more sustainable energy. That's for another time. However, your work probably started as play, but then there probably got to a point where it was not sustainable that you were doing that much work. Now, what needs to happen again? It just goes back into energy management of you need to be able to look at your day, look at what you got going on, and I put it in my calendar, put little windows of time. I like to use windows instead of blocks. It just seems like it's more inviting. It's

Lisa Zawrotny: 23:01

more open, yeah, more open

Gary Ware: 23:03

windows of time that are allowing you to have micro rest. So, micro rest are the things that are going to rejuvenate you in between the moments where you need to be productive, there's a lot of research that shows that us humans, we are bad predictors of our own energy and our own ability to do things. There's been so many studies where they would ask people, like, "Oh, how long is it going to take you to do that? It's going to do x, y, z, boom, we miscalculated that. And then, on top of that, people think that they can be as accurate after six and a half hours as when they first started. Nope, not the case. So, again, we just need to just surrender and realize that we're just bad at understanding what we can do and what we can't do. So, there was a study that Microsoft did. They put little EKG caps on their employees. This was during the pandemic, and then they found that their employees that went from meeting to meeting to meeting by the fifth or fourth or fifth meeting, their brain was fried, just completely stressed and fried, and we all know we can't do our best work when you're stressed. Again, goes back to you're in that fight, flight, or freeze, you're being rash, rational, you're not, you don't have access to creativity and empathy, however, their employees that took these micro breaks in between each meeting, they found that their brain was fresh in some cases, even more so than when they started the day.

Lisa Zawrotny: 24:59

Wow, and I mean all of these things play into our energy, and that study. I love that, because that's anecdotally, I think we know we can tell that we're fried, but this is like this is data backing it up hard.

Gary Ware: 25:15

And so I think again, do you want to be effective? Do you really want to make an impact, right? Because if you do, you would do the things that are going to help you, you know, be the best version of yourself. However, again, it goes back to the mindset and the things that we say ourselves a lot of times when we jump into our own business. We have the old sort of mindset of like, oh, I need to trade hours for dollars. No, you don't have to. Let's work smarter, not harder.

Lisa Zawrotny: 25:44

Yeah, and I think also, too, when we're caring about what we're doing right, and we're stressing about getting something done, and I can see it in my kids, where I'm like, you need to take a break, you need to get a snack, you need to step away, because then you'll come back with a fresh mind, and you'll be able to tackle it better. No, no, no, I have to get it done. It's that it's a knee-jerk response that we have, and for those of you who are rebels, I know who you are. I see you, and you're like, I don't care if it's a window or a block, I'm not scheduling it. Then know why you're doing this, know the overarching movement that you're trying to accomplish here, and know that you need a certain number, and then go ahead and do it some way to. Front, if you have like check boxes, and then you're just like checking it off, where you're like setting a timer and asking yourself, am I doing it now, you know? Play with it and find a way. So, speaking of which, How long are we talking about with micro micro breaks? And give us some for instances, what could those look like?

Gary Ware: 26:41

Yes, and so this is where the play can potentially come in typically when people take a micro break, they do something that would not rejuvenate their body. They probably check email, they probably scroll social media. These things aren't helping. Matter of fact, it's actually draining you even more, so because you are adding more stress and whatnot, you know, to your brain and to your capacity. I'm saying five minutes, five minutes is not going to hurt you, and in that five minutes, this is where, like, again, choose your own adventure. What do you need? Do you feel like what your husband's situation? Maybe you do need to have connection. Let me connect with someone real quick, you know, vent, let that drain, or maybe you just got off a pretty stressful call, and you need to like sort of bounce back up, or maybe just walk around, or maybe you need to be like me, and I keep a bag of Legos at an arm's reach, and then for me I set a timer for five minutes, I'm not building anything in particular, I'm just again using my hands, getting my eyes off the screen into something else, I'm getting very tactile, or maybe you need to just walk around, rock around your office, you know. It could be something that, believe it or not, there is, especially if your purpose for doing it is to rejuvenate yourself. Why not give yourself five minutes and play Candy Crush,

Lisa Zawrotny: 28:00

right? I mean, whatever is fun. I've set a timer for five or 10 minutes, and I've, I've read a little bit more of a book. It doesn't seem like a long time, but you know it's something. It just, it takes me into a different world. And I will add this. I love that you're coming from a place of been focused, we've been scrunched, we've been stressed, we've been all the things, and then we're trying to relieve that. But I will also add that this kind of micro break can be very effective when it comes to celebrating a moment too, and I got to give a shout out to my biz bestie, Liz August from Simplify Simplify. She and I are on Voxer constantly, and so we've just had, you know, you're there and you're in the flow and you're with your client and you're doing all this wonderful stuff, and we will Voxer each other, and it's.. we don't give details, you know, because this is client stuff, but what we can say is I was on fire, I was an awesome coach, and you know, like just celebrating it, and again, but it's taking you out of work, and you're celebrating, you're having fun, and maybe doing a happy dance, but you know, little baby steps here, yeah, to celebrate something, so that same kind of connection that you're talking about, which can be on WhatsApp or Voxer or in person, or or whatever, or we're a text, you know, like just tell whoever you can something that you just like kicked butt and took names on, right? That's awesome. I love that. Five minutes, five minutes,

Gary Ware: 29:20

five minutes. And then again, for those rebels out there, they're like, I don't want to put something on my calendar, because I don't want to be beholden to even my own things. All right, what you need to do is you need to create triggers, so that your brain and your body know what to do, and so it's very simple statement as an if-then statement, or when then. I think, so when I finish blank, I will blink because it makes me feel blank.

Lisa Zawrotny: 29:47

Oh, I like that. You could even write that out if you want, but then again, if you're a rebel, you're like, I'm not writing anything but simple triggers too, or cues. That's the same idea that we have when we're building habits, right? Okay, could be every time you finish with a client call, you finish the notes first, by the way, that's just my tip pro tip. There, or you know, you have AI help you, that's there are lots of options, but the point is you finish the task at hand, right? Especially when it comes to, let's say, client calls or something that you know that you do regularly, you have on the as an appointment, and it takes something out of you, and then you say, okay, each time I finish with that, there's a buffer before I do the next thing, there's five minutes, so yeah,

Gary Ware: 30:30

and now you're habit stacking, because you have that habit, and then you stack a new habit on top of that, now you're more likely to do it, and then I like to say, because it will make me feel, so now you are acknowledging what the benefit of doing this, because again, like, our brains are wired for negativity. Negativity is like velcro, positivity is like Teflon. So, you have to again remind yourself of, like, why am I doing this? What is this for? And so that's important when you put that together.

Lisa Zawrotny: 30:58

Love that. Okay. Well, I am really excited, because the next thing we're talking about is the mezzo,

Gary Ware: 31:06

yes, mezzo breaks, mezzo rest. All right, so this is again those overachievers, those people that don't like to step away from the work because they don't think that they have time. You're going to struggle for this. Before I get into it, I want to tell you a stat. This is based off of inventors. So inventors, their sort of measure of success is patents. So, if you're inventing things, you have to put patents, because you have to protect your intellectual property. And they found that inventors that had hobbies produced three times more patents than inventors that didn't have hobbies. I will repeat that again. Inventors that had hobbies produced three times more patents than those that didn't, so you might be thinking yourself, How is that? Why is that? So, there's a lot that goes on. So, I will get back to that in a moment. Let's talk about what a mezzo break is. A mezzo break is when you actually step away from the work to do something else, the wish, the big wish, you know, the thing to aim for is a sabbatical, you know, and a long extension from the work. However, it could be a full day off, you know, a vacation, you know, something where you're not working. But since we're talking about baby steps, maybe it's three hours on a Friday.

Lisa Zawrotny: 32:22

Ooh, yeah, like doing that half day Friday thing,

Gary Ware: 32:24

half day Friday, you cut out three hours early, and then you go and do something that is going to rejuvenate you. Going back to the hobbies, it's one of these things they call the vacuum effect. If you don't have something to fill it, you're probably going to fill it with negative stuff, or the stuff that you're used to. So, think about a hand, like what else you know, because I remember I was working with someone, and Eddie, like, oh yeah, all right, I'll put it, and he put in his calendar, and then when he had nothing, and so he ended up working. I'm like, what are you doing working? I was like, you're not supposed to be working, I'm working on something else, and it was just like he was honest with himself, he like he had nothing, so again, you need to have something to fill it with, and so, like, what is something that sparks joy? What is something that is going to make you more curious, and go do that, or maybe, especially if you, you know, are you know someone that has a family and parents, maybe you spend time with your kids, you're like, hey, you know, I'm going to use these three hours to just have quality family time, or whatever. As long as you're not working, you're stepping away. So, getting back to these inventors with the patents, the way that our brains work, our brains always working on the stuff. If you don't think that you're working on, you know, the stuff that is sort of keeping you up at night, your brain's working on it. It's working, it's in the background, it's there. Trust the process. And so these inventors that had hobbies by them just engaging in something other than their work, they're making connections. Think about the last time you had a big aha, it probably wasn't when you were trying to. It's probably in a place like the shower, or you're out for a run, or you out lunch, or you were doing some network, or something like that.

Lisa Zawrotny: 34:00

Oh yeah, I mean, either the shower or like taking a drive, I solve all the world's problems,

Gary Ware: 34:05

then, and so that is why they were able to be that much more successful, because they were doing something else, their brain was still working on it, but then they had these connections, and then also, if you're mixing in some networking, Steve Jobs, the late great Steve Jobs, he would want to connect with so many different types of people, like carpenters and construction people, and just talk and listen to them, and when you hear things from a different perspective, sometimes that will give you a spark of inspiration, and so that's what I'm excited about, that type of rest one, because it gives you space to do the things that spark joy, so again, because I'm the play guy, so most people like, oh, what do I do? All right. Well, in the book Play by Dr. Stuart Brown, he talks about different play personalities. There happens to be nine of them, and you can explore those and use that as inspiration for what you potentially could do. I had one person that I was working with after some discovery and whatnot. She did not want to go and go collect dolls, because that's what she did when she was younger, but she found when she unpacked that with the essence of what she was doing was she loved nurturing again. This was mid pandemic, so her other play personality was the explorer, so she couldn't travel, and so she started collecting succulents, and she started nurturing them, so now she's, she's starting to activate something that is very familiar with her, how she used to play when she was younger. So there's like a nostalgia activate, and like I think by the end of the pandemic, or when things started opening back up again, I said independent is still going, but anyways, she had like over 200 and something succulents,

Lisa Zawrotny: 35:43

and there you go, so I like that you're, you're bringing up an example like this, because I have questions. Nobody's shocked about that, which is that you know, so where things overlap, and where we can like get things on a technicality, right? And it's not even from the devil's advocate kind of place, where, where we're trying to say, well, what technically constitutes play, going back to your definition of, you know, regardless of the outcome that it brings you joy. I'm wondering where the moments of self care fall into this. So, for example, and so this is one of those like tips slash questions, because this is how I approach things. I love approaching a week with themes, and so. Tuesday is my self-care day, so that automatically builds in I don't do work, or if I do, it would be in the evenings, because I do have some clients, you know, across the country, across the pond, you know, or who work during the day and need an evening session, but the whole day is free for me to pack in different kinds of activities and things, and I absolutely make sure that I do things that, like, nourish me and bring me joy. Some of it can be a little more practical. That's when I'm going to do doctor's appointments or things like that. So, what's your take on that sort of sliding scale of all those things, and how, where play falls in?

Gary Ware: 37:01

I love this. I love this. Yes, the fact that you have it built into your schedule is awesome. The main thing here is the point about the mezzo break is that you step away from the work, you put the work aside, and I love that you have a day, you know, dedicated for that. And I tell people, like, all right, if you don't like the word play, all right, let's rename it self care. The goal here is that you're nourishing yourself, you're doing the things that are going to bring joy that are going to allow you to rejuvenate, so that when you get into the work, you are more focused. This is sustainable again, because we're trying to make an impact. You cannot make an impact if you do not give yourself a place to recover.

Lisa Zawrotny: 37:41

Exactly, I came up with the phrase when you were describing earlier, you know that we don't need to work in order to deserve the rest, and I wrote his rest to be your best, right? And so there you go, right? You heard it here first, folks. Okay, so with that in mind, you know, I mix and match on that day, and some of it that's also a de-stressor, because it's like, okay, I got those appointments out of the way, I got you to go do this thing, and some of it's practical, and some of it's luxurious, and some of it's some of it's just a mix and match of like I wanted to get some of these things done, but it's nothing to do with work, it's just other stuff, but I make sure that it's not just a day full of, oh, I'm momming, and you know, grocery shopping, and whatever, although there are aspects of joy for me, like being able to nourish myself and my family by cooking or meal planning, or whatever, so there's things, and I just, I kind of just play with it. There's the word, you know, I mean, I'm flexible with it, and just giving yourself that flexibility, like, okay, I love that you said we don't have to define it, I didn't want that word play to ever make people think I have to start learning how to hula hoop. Like, what does that mean exactly? You know, you can, but it doesn't have to be for me. It's literally picking up my guitar or picking up a book or something like that, or just just mellowing out, or honestly, napping. I'm all about the napping. Yeah, just all of it, all of it's good, but you're taking that more extended break to do it.

Gary Ware: 39:10

Yes, and one thing you know, regarding sort of play and the mix and matching and stuff like that, what is something that, yeah, sparks joy, and that's why I love that there are so many different play personalities, because play is very personal, one person's form of play or style of play is not always the same thing. I was working with someone who grew up, whose parents grew up during the Great Depression. They grew up across the pond in England, and so, like, sort of traditional sort of rough and tumble, and sort of a lot of the sort of kid play of like just goofing off was not acceptable. They're a very serious family, and so she came up to me. She's like, I don't think I played at all. And so then I went through the different play personalities, and, and I, we got to the storyteller, and with the storyteller, if that's your play personality, you like to go deep and sort of lose yourself in movies and books, and, and maybe drama, like if you like, you know, acting stuff like that, and she, she had an aha, she's like, oh, I love to read, and I would, and she just went off, and you can tell when you hit something, because she's lit up, and it was just like all this sort of joy, and I said, all right, there we go, that was play for you, you can do it, you know, just for the sake of doing it, you would lose yourself in it, so once she understood that, like, it again blew everything wide open for her, because she realized she did play it, just wasn't the type of play that maybe we're used to.

Lisa Zawrotny: 40:34

Yeah, I think that's such an important point. And so your takeaway for today, right, is think about what play is to you, what that would mean to you, and it just goes back to that whole idea of something that is nourishing you, it's giving you joy, it's just flat out fun, it's something that takes you away from all the other stuff, all the worries and the focus. Okay, this feels like a really amazing place for us to wrap up. Does that sound good to you? I

Gary Ware: 41:05

love it.

Lisa Zawrotny: 41:05

Great. Then please tell us where we can find you online, where we can find your book, all that.

Gary Ware: 41:10

Yes. All right. So, if listening to this, you got curious, and you're like, oh, wow, you know, tell me more. You could, you could go to my website, breakthroughplay.com I do have a book out. It is Play. Rebellion, maximize workplace success through the power of play. I go into the different types of rest. I talk about again how you can rebel against the status quo using play. You can find that on my website, or you can go to playfulrebellion.com If you want to ask me questions, I am on the socials. Name is Gary Ware, so you can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram. Those are the places where I play the most, but I am on all the others as well.

Lisa Zawrotny: 41:51

What stays with me most from Gary's message is that reframe he offered early on. We don't work to rest, we rest so we can do the best possible work. For a lot of us, it rewrites a story we've been carrying for a long time, one we've been chatting about on the podcast for a long time as well. You don't have to earn your rest. He also reminded us that rest is personal. What actually restores you is what matters. And as a gentle reminder, your joy list is a great place to start. If you haven't already explored that, you can request it for free at Positively productive.com/resources You want to look for the Productivity Toolkit. The Joyless Workbook is one of a number of workbooks in there to help you learn all about how you work best. The next episode picks up where this one leaves off, focusing on the practical side of building rest into your real life in the ways that actually work for you, and until then, keep making space for what matters most, and remember that includes you.